'It's the can't recall show,': Post Office's Paula Vennells outbreak of emotion 'crocodile tears'
A postmistress from County Tyrone wrongly accused of stealing thousands of pounds says she rejects an apology made by the former boss of the Post Office.
Paula Vennells broke down on a number of occasion has she was questioned at the Post Office Inquiry about her role during the Horizon IT scandal
But Deirdre Connolly, who was the first postmistress to speak out publicly in Northern Ireland, described the former CEO's outbreak of emotion as “crocodile tears.”
"It's the can not recall show," she told UTV.
"She didn't cry when we were going through it all, it should be the buck stops with me, as sub postmaster the buck was supposed to stop at us and that's why we had to pay the money back, the buck stops with her and she should be answering the questions instead of all this I do not recall," said Ms Connolly.
Former Post Office boss Paula Vennells broke down in tears on her first day of giving evidence to the Horizon IT inquiry, after admitting she "made mistakes" but denied there was a conspiracy to cover up the decades-long scandal.
She opened her evidence to the inquiry by telling all impacted sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses: "I am very, very sorry.
"I would like to say how sorry I am for all the sub-postmasters and their families who have suffered as a result of all that the inquiry has been looking into for so long."
Ms Vennells added she "followed and listened to all the human impact statements" of sub-postmasters and was "very affected by them", before apologising specifically to campaigner Alan Bates.
Her first day of evidence at the Horizon IT inquiry opened with inquiry chair Sir Wyn Williams reading her a "public" warning about self-incrimination. It was heard one of her witness statements is 775 pages long.
She was grilled on why she told MPs the Post Office was successful in every court case against sub-postmasters involving the Horizon system. After she was presented with three examples of sub-postmasters who were acquitted over the faulty IT system, she broken down in tears saying she accepts "now" the Post Office knew but "personally I didn't".
Ms Vennells went on to admit she "made mistakes" but denied she and colleagues attempted to cover up the scandal, saying "a conspiracy feels too far-fetched".
Alan Bates says he has "no sympathy" for Paula Vennells
Speaking outside Aldwych House after Ms Vennells gave evidence, campaigner and former sub-postmaster Alan Bates said, "the whole thing is upsetting for everybody, including so many of the victims."
"I've got no sympathy really."
Asked if he thinks she is genuinely sorry, he said "I wonder about these apologies, these are just words."
He added that it was "good to see" Ms Vennells on the stand.
Mr Bates also said he met "senior" Metropolitan Police staff on Wednesday morning to discuss possible prosecutions following the Post Office scandal.
"They are certainly going to investigate, I've had that assurance and I think the group needs that as an assurance," he said, "it's something that we've never been certain of until today."
'I was too trusting': Vennells suggests she was not aware of bugs in Horizon system
Ms Vennells was pressed by inquiry counsel Jason Beer KC over multiple assertions in her witness statements that she was never warned about bugs in the faulty accounting software, Horizon. The questions come amid claims she covered up the Post Office’s knowledge of the issues.
Asked if she was the "unluckiest CEO in the United Kingdom", she said she was "too trusting" during her tenure as Post Office boss but insisted: "I did probe and I did ask questions."
“As the inquiry has heard, there was information I wasn’t given and others didn’t receive as well... I’m disappointed where information wasn’t shared and it has been a very important time for me… to plug some of those gaps," she added.
Mr Beer focused on wording in her witness statement, which says "lives were torn apart by being wrongly accused and wrongly prosecuted as a result of the Horizon system. I am truly sorry and will so for the rest of my life".
He asked: "Do you continue to think the issue was with the computer system as an oppose to the conduct, competence and ethics of those working in the Post Office?"
Ms Vennells replied: "No, not at all" and that "was not what I intended to convey at all."
But Mr Beer went on to suggest her use of words - which he again picked up later in her witness statement - was "a perpetuation of a culture" that ran through the organisation "of failing to take responsibility" and blaming it on the Horizon system.
She disagreed and acknowledged the "tragedy of which we're dealing with today is a result of something much broader than an IT system".
ITV News UK Editor Paul Brand questions Paula Vennells as she arrives at the inquiry in Aldwych House, London
'I think you knew': Text messages with ex-Royal Mail boss revealed
The inquiry was shown an iMessage exchange between Ms Vennells and former Royal Mail CEO, Dame Moya Greene, with whom the former Post Office boss said she'd always had a good relationship.
In the exchange - which Ms Vennells believes took place in January, this year - Dame Moya says she "can't now support" Ms Vennells after doing so "all these years" to her "own detriment".
Dame Moya appears to accuse her of knowing about the bugs, errors and defects of the Horizon system, saying: "I think you knew."
Ms Vennells replies: "No Moya, that isn't the case."
When pressed by Mr Beer, the ex-Post Office boss rejected that was the accusation Dame Moya was levelling at her and said she was suggesting there was a conspiracy.
Mr Beer replied: “Moya asks how could you not know, you did not answer.”
“No… I was very concerned because I was aware that it is not good practice to be exchanging texts in the middle of an inquiry," Ms Vennells replied, to which Mr Beer said: “How could you not know?”
Ms Vennells said: “This is a situation that is so complex, it is a question I have asked myself as well. I have learned some things that I did not know as a result of the inquiry and I imagine that we will go through some of the detail of that.
"I wish I had known.”
Accusations over sub-postmaster's suicide 'unhelpful', says Vennells
Ms Vennells broke down in tears again as she was questioned over the suicide of Martin Griffiths, a father and former sub-postmaster, who was sacked from his Cheshire branch earlier that year.
His death came after he had been deemed culpable by the Post Office for an armed robbery at his Hope Farm Post Office branch in May 2013.
Mr Griffiths had also previously written to the Post Office in July 2013 about a £39,000 shortfall at his branch between February 2012 and May 2013. He was sacked from his branch in July of the same year.
He was falsely accused of stealing a total of £100,000 from his Ellesmere Port branch which he and his family were chased for by the Post Office.
On September 23, 2013, he deliberately stepped in front of an oncoming bus and was taken to hospital where he remained in a coma for three weeks before his life support machine was turned off.
The inquiry was shown an email from campaigner and former sub-postmaster Alan Bates to Ms Vennells and others, in which Mr Bates said he had received an email from a relative of Mr Griffiths on September 13. The relative said “the Post Office had driven him to suicide”.
An email chain between former Post Office general counsel Susan Crichton and Ms Vennells was also shown, in which Ms Vennells says “if it is an attempted suicide, as we sadly know, there are usually several contributory factors”.
Asked why she was raising the fact that there were usually several contributory factors, she said she was “very sorry”, adding: “Every email you will see from me about Mr Griffiths, I start with him and how he was and how his family are. The Post Office took far too long to deal with it.”
She went on to say accusations of blame by Mr Bates were “unhelpful” and denied trying to “get on the front foot” and “counter the narrative” that Mr Griffiths took his own life because the Post Office had ruined his life.
“What I was trying to do, quite simply, it was to get the wider picture and to understand particularly the very difficult challenges that Mr Bates had levelled at some Post Office colleagues," she said.
Jason Beer KC later asked whether Ms Vennells regrets calling sub-postmasters complaints "noise", in an emal sent in March 2015.
"Does it in fact reflect the workings of the minds of those at the top end of the Post Office, that sub-postmaster complaints about Horizon are in fact just 'noise'?" He asked.
"It is a word I regret using," Ms Vennells said, "it did not mean in any way that I personally did not take issues seriously when they got to me."
She added that "there was an understanding that the system worked."
Victims urge Vennells to 'come clean' with any personal wrongdoings
Over the course of three days of evidence, she will be grilled on her role in the scandal including likely questions on whether she deliberately misled MPs.
Hundreds of sub-postmasters were prosecuted by the business between 1999 and 2015 after Horizon, owned by Japanese company Fujitsu, made it appear as though money was missing at their branches.
Ms Vennells, a 65-year-old ordained priest, was Post Office boss from 2012 to 2019 - a time period in which the company was beginning to have to deal with the fall-out of potential wrongful sub-postmaster convictions.
She has been urged by the scandal’s victims to tell the truth in the lead-up to her evidence and “come clean” with any personal wrongdoings.
The probe previously heard Ms Vennells had hoped that there would not be an independent inquiry - even having her number blocked by ex-head of IT Lesley Sewell after seeking her help to avoid one.
Vennells evidence comes after 'smoking gun' email reveals Post Office 'cover up'
Her questioning under oath comes just hours after an email surfaced which showed Ms Vennells describe potential wrongful convictions of sub-postmasters as “very disturbing” more than a year before the company halted prosecutions.
ITV News reported that the October 2013 email, as well as a recording of a phone conversation involving Ms Vennells, confirmed she was sent case files of eight sub-postmasters.
The email from Ms Vennells to Ron Warmington, a forensic accountant with firm Second Sight who were drafted in to review independently the Horizon system, read: “Apart from finding them very disturbing (I defy anyone not to), I am now even better informed.
“The form you have devised is very helpful as it removes some of the emotion and highlights very clearly areas we need to address as well as investigate for the mediation process, which I hope will bring closure for some of these people.
“As I said… I take this very seriously…”
Questions over misleading MPs
In 2015, she told MPs she had seen no evidence of miscarriages of justice and that there were no faults in the Horizon system.
Counsel to the inquiry are likely to probe Ms Vennells on whether she deliberately misled the business select committee.
Mr Beer previously told the probe she made a false statement in 2012 to then-Conservative MP Oliver Letwin when she wrote about the prosecution of sub-postmasters, in which she said: “In every instance, the court has found in our favour.”
Questions about the Post Office’s alleged “defensive and self-absorbed” culture also loom over Ms Vennells - with the business’s current chief financial officer Alisdair Cameron speaking of an “unacceptable, self-serving” relationship with sub-postmasters.
He told the probe that Ms Vennells had been “clear in her conviction from the day I joined that nothing had gone wrong” - adding that she did not believe there had been any miscarriages of justice.
She has not yet spoken in detail about her role in the scandal, but previously apologised for the “devastation caused to sub-postmasters and their families”.
Ms Vennells was made a CBE in the 2019 New Years Honours List “for services to the Post Office and to charity”, but voluntarily handed the honour back after a petition attracted more than 1.2 million signatures.
The Metropolitan Police previously said they are looking at “potential fraud offences” arising out of the prosecution of sub-postmasters; for example, “monies recovered… as a result of prosecutions or civil actions”.
Two Fujitsu experts, who were witnesses in the trials, are being investigated for perjury and perverting the course of justice - but nobody has been arrested since the inquiry was launched in January 2020.
There are unlikely to be any criminal charges until inquiry chairman Sir Wyn Williams completes his final report, which is expected to be published next year.
In the meantime, hundreds of sub-postmasters are still awaiting compensation despite the government announcing that those who have had convictions quashed are eligible for £600,000 payouts.
System for dealing with complaints was "not good enough"
Paula Vennells said it was "hard" to see emails previously sent to her by sub-postmasters, and said the system for dealing with complaints was "not good enough".
The inquiry were shown a series of emails sent to Ms Vennells between 2014 to 2015 by former sub-postmaster Tim McCormack, who raised concerns about a "catalogue of systemic errors" with the Horizon system.
In one email, he says Ms Vennells had "no personal knowledge of operating Horizon nor probably any in-depth technical knowledge".
Jason Beer KC asked what steps she personally took in response to the email, and she said she does not recall.
"Genuinely, I don't recall," she added, after her response elicited gasps from the room.
She said that "in hindsight I think that [Mr McCormack] was right," that she is "very sorry" and that she was "too trusting".
She said that although there were two systems in place for dealing with complaints from sub-postmasters, she said it was "not good enough".
She was asked whether there was a way of keeping informed of how many complaints had been made. Ms Vennells said this "could have been done much better" and that there was no regular report.
"We didn't keep a good enough record on this matter," she said, "I did not have a regular report on the numbers coming through."
She added that, at the time, it "may not have seemed to people that there were that many [complaints] given the time span."
"When you put [the complaints] together like this, it clearly paints a very, very different picture and one that we should have been looking at," she said.
Inquiry boss says Paula Vennells is putting "gloss" on the evidence
Jason Beer KC drew attention towards Paula Vennells' witness statement, which confirms that she received a report in 2011 from EY. The report identified a risk that unrestricted access to privileged IT functions in the Horizon system could lead to "the processing of unauthorised or erroneous transactions."
Mr Beer said it was implicit in the statement that Fujitsu had remote access to Horizon, asking whether Ms Vennells accepted that.
"I don't believe that I understood that degree of detail," Ms Vennells responded, adding that she had recently been promoted and had not been involved in this type of audit before.
Inquiry Chair Sir Wyn interjected at this point, asking if the "gloss [she] is putting on it" is that she couldn't understand the report because of a lack of technical knowledge.
Ms Vennells replied that she did not mean to put a gloss on it. "It's a regret that I didn't understand at the time," she said.
Jason Beer KC listed several occasions when it appears Paula Vennells had been informed remote access was possible.
She said, "I did not reach a conclusion that meant that I was giving inaccurate information to the select committee, that is not something which I would have done."
The inquiry were also shown an email sent in 2011 by Donald Brydon, the then-Chair of the Royal Mail Group. Mr Brydon said in the email that he was "surprised" to read about class action by sub-postmasters.
The Post Office and Royal Mail used to be part of the same company, but split into separate organisations in 2012. He also asked whether there had ever been an independent audit of Horizon.
In response, Ms Vennells replied that the issue had "reared its head before", and reiterated that all cases that had been taken to court had seen the Post Office's position upheld - a sentiment which, Jason Beers KC points out, was false.
He asked Ms Vennells whether there were "pieces of folklore" that developed around the Post Office. "How is it that on all of these critical issues, so many false statements were circulating within the Post Office?" he asked.
"At the time they were not considered to be false," Ms Vennells responded, adding that "The source of those statements... would have been through the Post Office legal team."
"At the time, I believed that I was getting information from people who were employed to give me the right advice due to their expertise."