Welsh fire services 'in denial' over culture issues as Senedd chair leading scrutiny reveals concern

• Jonathan Hill sat down with Jenny Rathbone MS, chair of the Senedd's equality and social justice committee

Managers are in "denial" about the magnitude of cultural problems at Wales' fire services, according to the chair of the Senedd equality committee which is hearing evidence about how the organisations are run.

Jenny Rathbone MS, who chairs the equality and social justice committee, told ITV Wales she "wouldn't be able to categorically say that workers are safe" at the country's three fire and rescue services: north, south, and mid and west Wales.

For five weeks, ITV Wales has been investigating claims of bullying and a "toxic culture" at North Wales Fire and Rescue Service, in the aftermath of a damning report into the culture at South Wales Fire and Rescue Service yielding 82 recommendations.

Separately, Ms Rathbone and the committee have been hearing evidence about the governance and accountability of Welsh fire services.

She expressed concerns over the lack of action taken to tackle bullying and harassment and said she was surprised by South Wales Fire and Rescue Service's choice of interim chief fire officer Stuart Millington, who along with North Wales Fire and Rescue Service is facing bullying allegations at an employment tribunal. He denies the allegations.

"Are concerns being listened to?"

During our investigation into the culture in north Wales, we have heard how staff feel like their concerns have not been listened to.

Recently announcing that cultural reviews would take place for both north and mid and west Wales services, Welsh Government deputy minister for social partnership Hannah Blythyn also said she had been contacted by a number of people from all three of the services with serious concerns, with review findings expected to be published no later than autumn this year.

Meanwhile, the Senedd's equality and social justice committee is due to complete their investigation into the governance arrangements at Wales' fire and rescue services and publish their findings before the end of April.

Speaking exclusively to ITV Wales, committee chair Ms Rathbone said: "I and the rest of the committee are all very concerned about the situation in all three fire and rescue services.

"I wouldn't be able to categorically say that workers are safe because I don't think any of the three organisations have really done the root-and branch grassroots analysis of the problem.

"This has been bubbling away for at least 10 years.

"Everybody is just passing the hot potato and not actually addressing the problem."

Ms Rathbone added she was shocked that 35 whistleblowers had contacted ITV Wales with concerns about culture in north Wales.

When asked if she thought bosses were "wanting to keep a lid on it", she said: "I certainly think so. But I don't think they're doing a very good job."

Surprise at Stuart Millington's appointment

Following the release of a damning report into the culture at South Wales Fire and Rescue Service in January, Welsh Government drafted in four commissioners to oversee changes at the service.

At the start of February, the commissioners appointed Mr Millington, the deputy chief in the north, as the interim chief fire officer in south Wales.

However, just days later, ITV revealed that Mr Millington was at the centre of bullying allegations himself, allegations he denies.

Ms Rathbone says she was surprised by his appointment, saying: "We were certainly surprised by his appointment once we realised some of the allegations against him, and I wonder whether the commissioners were properly advised."

Turning her attention to the commissioners' role in appointing Mr Millington, she said: "Were they really aware? Were they told that this gentleman had these outstanding allegations against him?

"Or was this done by the officers and then put to them as a recommendation? I think there are alot of questions around that.

"I think I speak for all members, that we are concerned at the appointment of this particular individual. When there are outstanding allegations against him, it doesn't feel it sends the right message."

"Making the problem worse"

Since we revealed the allegations from 35 whistleblowers in north Wales, we have requested an interview with the service's chief fire officer Dawn Docx for an interview on multiple occasions, but these requests have been declined.

The committee chair said of this: "I think she has to front it up.

"You know, she can't escape this by not appearing on the television and explaining herself and the actions being taken by her service.

"She's just making the problem worse."

A statement from North Wales Fire and Rescue Service said: "We are now working closely with Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service to appoint an external person, and to develop the terms of reference, for conducting the review into how we are progressing on our cultural journey.

"In relation to the equality and social justice committee, we presented our evidence openly and honestly last week and have explained the progress we are making on our cultural journey, how fire and rescue services in Wales have been very successful over the last 10 years in reducing fires and keeping the public safe, and how we continue to work hard and value all those who work for our service.

"Our priority remains the well-being and safety of our staff, and we are dedicated to creating a positive and inclusive environment within our organisation."

A spokesperson for the commissioners at South Wales fire service said: "The commissioners have received a request for information from Jenny Rathbone, and we will respond in writing to the committee shortly. Everything she has asked has already been answered in the public domain, and we have nothing further to add."

Mr Millington said in a statement: "The vast majority of our staff come to work every day and treat each other with dignity and respect. A small minority, however, do not.

"A root-and-branch transformation programme is underway to deliver the recommendations in the Morris review, and I applaud the colleagues who came forward and called out the poor behaviours highlighted.

"The leadership team, commissioners, and staff across the service are working together to weed out poor behaviour and inappropriate attitudes, so that everyone can enjoy a positive and safe experience coming to work at South Wales Fire and Rescue."

Mid and West Wales Fire and Rescue Service has been asked to comment.

Want a quick and expert briefing on the biggest news stories? Listen to our latest podcasts to find out What You Need To Know…