Post Office scandal: Police chief not ruling out corporate manslaughter

Met Police Commander Stephen Clayman has told ITV News he's 'confident' of results from its large-scale probe into the Post Office scandal, as Investigations Editor Daniel Hewitt reports

The police commander in charge of the criminal investigation into the Post Office scandal has told ITV News he is "confident" and "optimistic of good results" as he revealed the number of suspects is growing.

In an exclusive interview, his first since taking the role, Commander Stephen Clayman said the investigation, which involves 100 officers from forces across the country, is not ruling out corporate manslaughter charges against the Post Office.

"We're focusing on perjury and perverting justice, but I'm not ruling out other offences if that evidence comes to light," he said.

He also told ITV News that police had experienced "difficulties" with the Post Office, describing their cooperation with the criminal inquiry in handing over documents as "not as fast as I would certainly like". He said the police prepared to go to court if potential evidence is not handed to them.

Commander Clayman said that "dozens" of people were being treated as "persons of interest". Asked if former Chief Executive Paula Vennells was one of them, he said he wouldn't comment on individuals, but reassured sub-postmasters that officers would be going after senior bosses to see if "offences extend into management".

Commander Stephen Clayman says he is "confident" the investigation will have good results

Any criminal trials are not expected to take place until 2027 at the earliest, as police are waiting for the conclusion of the Public Inquiry into the Horizon scandal.

Commander Clayman said the police investigation also involves at least 3,000 victims and around 1.5 million documents.

The force has said there are now 100 officers from across the country working on the investigation, dubbed Operation Olympos.

Decisions to charge anyone over potential criminal offences are on hold until the public inquiry's final report is published, police added - a decision criticised by former sub-postmasters like Harjinder Butoy.

"There's enough evidence there for them to continue," Mr Butoy told ITV News.

"They don't really have to wait for the public inquiry because they've got all the paperwork for it. I just don't understand why it's taking so long."

Police chief confirms their investigation is looking at dozens of people

Mr Butoy said he has been calling for police involvement in bringing those responsible for wrongful convictions to justice since "day one", but doesn't have "any faith" in them.

He was wrongfully accused of stealing £200,000 from his branch in Sutton-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire, and was sentenced to three years in prison.

More than 900 sub-postmasters were prosecuted by the Post Office and handed criminal convictions between 2000 and 2015, as Fujitsu's faulty Horizon system made it seem money had gone missing at their branches. The scandal has since been considered one of Britain's most widespread miscarriages of justice in history.

He told ITV News: "I want someone charged, sent to prison the way they sent me.

"It really destroyed me and probably a lot of other people out there. I really want that to happen, but will it happen? I don't think it will."

Commander Clayman said he had taken the time to meet with sub-postmasters in person to discuss the investigation.

"I've looked them in the eyes and said we're going to do our very best to get an outcome for them and being very open and honest about the challenges of that," he said.

"I have said this directly to them because I wanted to make them aware of what we're doing and why we're doing it, which is to try and bring some resolution to what awful experience they have had to endure for so many years."

No timetable has been set for release of the final report from the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry, but its closing statements will be heard on December 16 and 17.

In November, the Met said four suspects had been identified in the investigation, a number which is expected to rise.

Meanwhile, hundreds of sub-postmasters are still yet to receive compensation, including Mr Butoy. The government has announced three main payout schemes, but those impacted in the scandal have suffered delays in receiving money.

In October, a parliamentary inquiry was announced to look into delays in compensation.

Mr Butoy told ITV News of his anger waiting to see those responsible for the wrongful convictions face prosecution themselves.

"You think it's going to go away, but it doesn't, does it? It's right in me, it's because I want justice. I want someone done. These people have done me, they've done my family over. Not just mine, but hundreds of people out there."

Mr Butoy said he wanted to see those involved in wrongfully prosecuting hundreds of sub-postmasters "sent to prison"

He served 18 months in prison, a time which he said he spent crying and thinking about his family and three children.

"Every day, every second, I was thinking about how they were coping out there, how they were doing," he said.

"We lost everything and we didn't have no money, not a penny to our name."

Chairwoman of the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners, Emily Spurrell, said: “Victims of the Horizon IT scandal exist in every part of the UK, innocent people whose lives have been ruined over a quarter of a century.

“Those who found themselves caught up in this through no fault of their own deserve justice and, as what is likely to be a lengthy police investigation scales up, they are entitled to be fully supported through it.”

A portal has been set up where those with information can send details and documents to investigators, which can be found here.

For Mr Butoy, justice cannot come soon enough.

"I try switching off, thinking, 'leave it now'. But they've scarred us, it's a proper scar."

A Post Office spokesperson said: “Post Office has co-operated fully and openly with the Metropolitan Police since early 2020 to provide whatever information it needs for its investigations.

"This has included wide-ranging requests for large volumes of data, all of which we have agreed to. This is in addition to disclosing almost 500,000 documents to the Horizon IT Inquiry.

"We will continue to co-operate with the Metropolitan Police as they undertake their investigations.”

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