ABBA's Bjorn Ulvaeus calls for clearer laws on use of music at political rallies
Bjorn Ulvaeus tells ITV News Arts Editor Nina Nannar that Donald Trump may have misunderstood the lyrics to The Winner Takes It All.
"It is a grey area," he tells me, as we meet in a room that is anything but grey.
It is the multicoloured setting for Mamma Mia the Party, at the O2 in London, an immersive show loosely based on the movie Mamma Mia - in which you eat, drink and dance while performers act around you.
It is celebrating its fifth year and is still going strong. Bjorn Ulvaeus from ABBA is in town to mark this anniversary, but has arrived in a week when the band and their music are making different kinds of headlines.
The band, through their record company Universal, have instructed Donald Trump and his team to stop playing their song The Winner Takes It All at presidential campaign rallies.
They did not give permission, they say, although the Trump team say they do have licenses for this sort of use of music. That’s where the grey area conversation comes in.
Bjorn tells me what is needed is some kind of legal ruling to make what is now a grey area, well, a bit more black-and-white.
This week the family of the late soul singer Isaac Hayes scored a victory in their campaign to stop Trump using a song Hayes co-wrote called Hold On I’m Coming in his campaign.
He is blocked from doing so while the court considers an application for a permanent injunction.
"If there is a resolution in this, it could be the legal definition we are waiting for," Bjorn said.
ABBA are the latest in a long line of artists who have been less than happy to see Trump using their songs to rally his fans at gatherings.
Adele and The White Stripes asked for their music not to be used. Celine Dion made the same request, when her hit from the film Titanic, My Heart Will Go On, was played.
She was later quoted as adding: ”And really, THAT song?”
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Similarly, Bjorn said he found it staggering that The Winner Takes It All was chosen for the rally.
"That is a song about someone who loses absolutely everything. It is not an uplifting arms in the air victorious kind of song," he giggled.
He has recently got together with the rest of the band - a very rare thing indeed these days when they were all honoured at a ceremony by the king of Sweden.
Bjorn looks ruthful.
"I looked around and I thought it was probably going to be the last time we would ever get together like that," he said.
There may not be any chance of any other reunions but it seems Mamma Mia 3 the movie is very much in the works though he won’t be drawn any further.
In the meantime, ABBA are doing just fine, thank you very much.
ABBA Voyage, the digital show, has helped bring more than £300 million to the London economy.
It is booking far ahead and going on a world tour - and the way things look, it's unlikely to leave the site in east London where they were meant to be for a certain period of time.
Decades after the band broke up, their music is as ubiquitous as ever. But don’t expect to be dancing along to it at a Trump rally in the future.
Unscripted is ITV News' arts and entertainment podcast, brought to you by ITV News Arts Editor Nina Nannar. In each episode, Nina speaks to a leading name from the world of arts and entertainment.