Taliban, trans rights and taxes: Key takeaways from final leaders' head-to-head debate
With just over a week left, Rishi Sunak and Sir Keir Starmer took to the stage for their final TV debate of the election
By Daniel Boal and James Hockaday, ITV News Producers
Rishi Sunak and Sir Keir Starmer went head-to-head for the second, and final time before the public goes to the polls on July 4.
Tonight's debate was one of the last times that Sunak had the chance to sway voters before they head to the ballot box, which is currently predicted to result in a Tory wipeout and the keys of Number 10 being handed to Labour.
Shouts of protest outside the BBC debate venue could be heard in the background as Rishi Sunak and Sir Keir Starmer spoke. Pro-Palestine protesters were among those standing outside the Nottingham Trent University building.
The Westminster news cycle over the past week has been dominated by one issue - gambling. The opening of the debate was no different.
Gambling and trust in politics
The first question pushed the two party leaders to respond to the betting scandal.
From a now-suspended Labour candidate betting on himself to lose, to at least five Tory candidates or officials being investigated over bets concerning the timing of the General Election, it is a political headache that has only grown as the week has gone on.
Labour leader Sir Keir accused the prime minister of being "bullied" into responding to the issue, during the debate
Starmer said: “You have to lead from the front on issues like this...the instinct of these people is to think the first thing they should do is try to make money, that was the wrong instinct, and we have to change that.”
Sir Keir continued: “What I did, when one of my team was alleged to have been involved and investigated by the Gambling Commission, they were suspended within minutes, because I knew it made it really important to be swift, the prime minister delayed and delayed and delayed until eventually he was bullied into taking off.”
In response, Sunak said: “It was important to me, that given the seriousness and the sensitivity of the matters at hand that they were dealt with properly, and that’s what I’ve done.”
Rishi Sunak also stated that alongside the investigation being conducted the Gambling Commission, the Conservative Party was also conducting an internal probe and had suspended candidates.
The Metropolitan Police has also been dragged into the scandal as they has launched an investigation. Meanwhile at least five officers, and one of the PM's close protection officers facing a probe from the Gambling Commission.
Reports are now beginning to emerge that alongside the betting probes, many other individuals have had their names flagged to investigators.
Sunak 'out of touch' on welfare, claims Starmer
Asked about his plan to get more people off benefits and back into employment, Rishi Sunak accepted that the number of people out of work is “too high”.
“It’s gone up by 800,000 since the pandemic, it’s gone up by 60% in the last few years,” said the prime minister, who said he would tighten up the eligibility criteria for welfare “to ensure that those who can work do work”.
He added: “If you want lower taxes and lower welfare, that’s what I’ll deliver, if you want higher taxes and higher welfare, that’s what Keir Starmer will do.
“I strongly agree that people are better off in work – it’s not just for the financial security it brings you – it’s about the purpose, the dignity that it brings to people.”
Mr Sunak claimed Labour had “opposed every single measure” regarding previous proposals he’d made on this issue, including demanding more medical information for health related benefits claims, and withdrawing support after 12 months to those who are turning down job offers.
But Sir Keir said the PM was “out of touch” on this issue and suggested the Tories allowing NHS waiting lists to reach “catastrophic” levels had exacerbated the problem.
He proposed reforming Job Centres and the Careers Service to ensure businesses with vacancies are referring to them.
Immigration: 'Are you going to try and do a deal with the Taliban?'
"We're an island, why can't we easily close our borders?", was the question posed to Starmer and Sunak on immigration.
Starmer answers the question first, explaining that the biggest threat to UK borders is small boat arrivals in the Channel. He stated since Sunak became PM, some 50,000 people crossed the Channel and "the government has lost control of our borders".
Dubbing it a "national security issue", Starmer says "we've got to process the claims" and "smash the gangs".
He added that "at the moment 100% of them are effectively being granted asylum in this country, because they can't go anywhere."
An answer that did little to dissuade an attack from the prime minister.
Claiming that smugglers will need bigger boats for asylum seekers coming to the UK under Labour, he stated that his Rwanda scheme is "a deterrent".
Sir Keir Starmer replied: “Record numbers coming across the Channel and he says it’s a deterrent, there are a few hundred that will go on a flight to Rwanda, a huge expense to taxpayers. There are tens of thousands, 15,000 people have come since Rishi Sunak has been prime minister.”
The largest swing in the immigration conversation however, came when Sunak asked Sir Keir if he would make return deals for asylum seekers for Afghanistan.
He asked: "Are you going to try and do a deal with the Taliban? It's completely nonsensical. You are taking people for fools."
Where is the money coming from?
The debate then shifted towards money - where it is coming from, and what it will be spent on.
The Institute for Fiscal Studies has read through both manifestos and decided that neither party has properly costed their plans.
The PM used the question to press his attack and says savings will be made with the Welfare Bill to fund tax cuts.
He visited a number of cuts that he wants to deliver - lower taxes for pensioners, remove stamp duty for young couples buying homes, and abolish National Insurance for self-employed - claiming that "tax cuts with Conservatives" and "tax rises with Labour".
Starmer circled back to his party line that Labour's manifesto is fully costed.
In a back and forth on state pensions, Rishi Sunak warned that pensioners should expect a “retirement tax” under Labour.
During the exchange, Sir Keir said Labour’s position on pensioners and tax is “exactly the same as the government”, adding: “It is the position of the government at their last budget.”
After pushing the Labour leader to match the Tories’ promise of a triple lock plus policy, Mr Sunak said: “If you are a pensioner, you should know, there is a retirement tax coming for you. Capital ‘r’, capital ‘t’, if he is your prime minister.”
In response, Sir Keir said: “Pensioners are not going to be better off with a prime minister who’s making promises that he can’t keep because they’re not funded.”
Prior to this, Sir Keir had said to Mr Sunak: “I think you should show some respect to the audience who want to know what I’ve got to say about this, without constantly being interrupted.”
Biggest cheer of the evening for Starmer as he referenced Sunak's transgender jibe
In what started as a question over single-sex spaces, ended in Starmer referencing Sunak making a transgender jibe in the House of Commons, while the mother of murdered schoolgirl Brianna Ghey, Esther Ghey, was in the commons.
Both leaders committed to protecting women’s rights to single-sex spaces, regardless of whether someone has a gender recognition certificate.
Questioned on this, the prime minister said: “Yes, unequivocally yes. And we will do that by changing the law, so that the old Equalities Act recognises that sex means biological sex.”
While the Labour leader agreed that “yes” it was “very important” to protect women-only spaces, he added: “I do recognise that there are a small number of people who are born into a gender that they don’t identify with, and I will treat them, as I treat all human beings, with dignity and respect.”
Sir Keir received applause and whoops from the audience, before continuing: “Because if you don’t, we end up with the prime minister of the United Kingdom standing in Parliament making an anti-trans joke in front of the mother of a murdered trans teenager.”
Mr Sunak replied: “That’s not what I did, I was pointing out that you’ve changed your mind on this question multiple times.”
Sunak & Starmer: 'We aren't going back to the EU'
As something that split the British public almost directly in two, the EU was one of the few things Sunak and Starmer agreed upon - albeit very briefly.
Both said they had no plans, nor the intention to rejoin the European Union, but they had hugely different plans on how they would integrate with the trade bloc going forward.
EU in short:
Starmer wants a closer relationship with the European Union. While he does not want to rejoin, he does want to pursue a better trade deal than the one the UK currently has in place.
Sunak believes the economy is "doing well - and exporting things around the world". He went on to "cut taxes on business rates" and "abolish National Insurance" to help small businesses. Unlike Starmer, he didn't allude to mending our trading relation to Europe.
Sunak claimed Labour's move to negotiate a better deal with the EU would allow “free movement by the back doors”.
Starmer hit back at the accusation, stating: “We are not going back into the EU, we’re not rejoining the single market or customs union, and we’re not accepting freedom of movement."
“I’m not a defeatist like the prime minister.”
To applause, he added: “I know we can get a better deal than the botched deal that we’ve got and I’m going to go out and fight for it. Not going to have freedom of movement come back, not going to back to the EU, but going to fight for get a better deal so you can trade more easily, so our economy can succeed, because I believe in our country.”
Sunak said he had negotiated for 18 months and that Sir Keir was saying he could “magic some good thing for us” with nothing expected in return from the EU.
Starmer said: “It’s very important when you start those negotiations that you’re very clear on the lines you won’t cross, and I’ve set out the lines I won’t cross.”
In the shadows of Truss and Corbyn
Starmer sought to damage Sunak’s credibility by suggesting he had rowed in behind short-lived premier Liz Truss’s economic agenda.
The prime minister claimed he had warned about the damage of Ms Truss’s plans, but Sir Keir said he then accepted them “in the next breath”.
BBC host Mishal Husain then stepped in, saying: “Hang on, you know what it is like to fall in behind a leader of your party,” in a reference to Sir Keir’s time serving under former Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn.
Closing statements: 'That is a lie, he's been told not to repeat that lie'
The combative nature of the debate came down to the last, with Starmer accusing Sunak of lying in his closing statement.
Bringing a finish to the debate, Sunak said: "I understand why you’re frustrated with our party, with me, I get it. But this is not a by-election, it’s a choice with profound consequences for you and our country. And before you make that choice, think what a Labour government would mean.
“Can you afford to pay at least £2,000 more in tax? And why won’t Keir Starmer be straight with you about what he wants to do? And if you’re not certain about Labour, don’t surrender to them, don’t vote for any other party, vote Conservative.”
In response, Starmer said: “That is a lie, he’s been told not to repeat that lie and he’s just done it.”
For his final thought, Sir Keir said: “My message to you is simple: if you want your NHS back, you have to vote for it. If you want a growing economy, you have to vote for it.
“If you want more police on our streets or teachers in our schools, you have to vote for it. If you want to end 14 years of chaos … then that power is in your hands, on July the 4th, vote change, vote Labour.”
No winner from debate according to snap survey
There was no winner in the BBC prime ministerial debate, according to a YouGov snap poll.
In a survey of 1,716 viewers, 47% said Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer won, 47% said Prime Minister Rishi Sunak did, and 6% answered they did not know.
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